Interview with European Commission President Jean-Klod Juncker: “Nationalism is poison”

INT ERVIESTER

What took you so long, Catalonia or Brexit?

YOU NCKER

Honestly, I don't know.

INT ERVIESTER

Did the pro-independence process in Catalonia cause the EU?

YOU NCKER

Catalonia is a great sorrow. Enorme. I don't like the circumstances that have been created: it's catastrophic. In many ways. It has reduced the political atmosphere, and generated an internal fracture in Spanish and Catalan society. He's created problems within families, between friends. It's very sad. This should never have happened.

INT ERVIESTER

Populism has made the political uncertainties greater in recent months, but after the elections in France the danger has apparently fallen. Is populism a political illness of great recession? Does Catalonian's required independence enter that category?

YOU NCKER

I've never had the impression that danger has passed. The far-right parties received many votes in the Netherlands; 11 million French voted for Marine Le Penny. In Germany they have gained considerable ground. As you can see, danger is still present.

INT ERVIESTER

And you see parallels between these processes and what your vice-president Frans Timmersmans calls “populist nationalism” about Catalonia?

YOU NCKER

Nationalism is poison. But I don't believe nationalism and populism are exactly the same thing; there are shades that divide them. I don't like the idea that if you're a winning party in a certain nation, you should do whatever you want. I'm in favor of regions of Europe: respect for identities, and differences. But that does not mean that we will accept all the adventures that these regions take, which may sometimes lead to terrible mistakes, even worse if unilateral independence is unilaterally declared in a referendum without any guarantees. Outside of Europe I am asked if Spain is in the process of breaking up: if your country is to split into two parts. I tell them no, and most Spaniards are enemies of independence, and even in Catalonia there is no clear majority that requires it. The government and Generalitat [the Catalonian regional government] can discuss the levels of autonomy, but Europe is a club of nations, and I do not accept that regions go against nations. Less when it's illegal.

INT ERVIESTER

In Salamanca, a few days earlier, you made a reference to the nationalism of the 1930 ' s.

YOU NCKER

We should be careful when making such comparisons: Times have changed. What I wanted to say was that, historically, when nationalism is done, Europe ends up in war, as Mytterrand said [the translator: French prime minister]; but that does not mean that what is happening in Catalonia precedes war. History shows that regional shots should not be fed and rejected through national identity. This is not the way to fight for your identity. Furthermore, what happened in Catalonia is not considered at this historic moment. Europe is a small continent. You're losing influence. Her demography is not alive. It was created by the dramatic non-crisis. What this time calls for is not separation, but rather the unification of all ambitions, of all European talent and energy: what Catalona has done is exactly the opposite.

INT ERVIESTER

Puidgemont is accusing you of running a Europe that is a cartoon of itself, which does not respect its values, which supports the Spanish prime minister, who, according to his lawyer, has made a kind of pimp and is holding political prisoners. Are these attacks affecting you?

YOU NCKER

I haven't had any personal contact with Puigdemont. Rajoy is a good friend of mine, but that doesn't matter: as president of the [European] Commission, I support the position of the Spanish government. And, you know why? For I am in favour of those who keep the law. The EU is based on law and order respect, and what my Catalan friends have done is quite the opposite. I am with those who have respected the constitutional order, and I cannot respect those who have violated it.

INT ERVIESTER

But are you in favor of applying Article 155?

YOU NCKER

The government must react to ensuring that the country's Constitution is being respected. I have nothing to say about Article 155. It's the same as law processes: I don't have any opinion. What it will underline is that Catalonia, like all of Europe, must respect the law. Prodi's doctrine has been there for years. And an inch shall not move from that which he hath said; keep the Constitution and the laws, keep the judgments of the Constitutional Court and other courts.

INT ERVIESTER

Catalan leaders of pro-independence have always said the EU will one day embrace their cause.

YOU NCKER

A few weeks ago, the Catalan government appeared strongly convinced that the declaration of independence would be known. But Puigdemont is already providing interviews where he says something quite different - that he simply has alternatives to independence. If he once believed that we would support him, he must now give up that idea: we will not support him. No single EU government will support what happened on October 1st in Catalonia.

INT ERVIESTER

What will happen if pro-independence parties win the elections again on December 21st?

YOU NCKER

You shouldn't ask me about a hypothetical scenario. I want to see Spain until I use all its power and intelligence to channel this thing to a happy end, or at least, acceptable.

INT ERVIESTER

In Europe, there have been reproofs to Prime Minister Rajoy. He had essentially ignored the problem before it happened. And police intervention on October 1st. But also for an exclusive legal enterprise, based on law. Do you agree with such criticism?

YOU NCKER

It's true: Rajoy has made a company that is very law-based. Should anyone be criticized for respecting the law? I don't make such criticism. Especially when you provoke illegal behavior in the Catalans. As for police intervention, I'm not sure how things turned out.

INT ERVIESTER

Various governments have expressed their concern. It wasn't good for Spain, was it?

YOU NCKER

There was a moment when the police had to intervene. I wasn't there. I saw many different images and many false news reports [Fake news]: I don't have the ability to tell unfortunately, and therefore I can't judge. But I can say I am, in principle, against the use of force. Never. By no one.

INT ERVIESTER

Did the situation require more politics?

YOU NCKER

I am in favour of dialogue but it is not my job to call for dialogue. Dialogue is always better than the use of force, but I believe it wasn't Rajoy's intention to use force. The Spanish government had to put order in its home. For that, why should there be dialogue? That's not up to me.

INT ERVIESTER

What did you say privately to the Spanish government?

YOU NCKER

That I am in favor of the law being respected. I never criticized them, single out the case of police action on October 1st. And, even then we weren't sure what had happened.

INT ERVIESTER

Give me a message for Pudgemont.

YOU NCKER

Catalan authorities should not underestimate the support Rajoy has from the rest of Europe. It would be very wrong if they did so.

INT ERVIESTER

Besides Catalonia, there are other dangers for Europe: Brexit, and the fact that the euro has been exposed to the crisis. Will Berlin object to a reform of the euro as usual?

YOU NCKER

The euro needs a Francogerman shaft, but this shaft is not enough. I think Merkel will make the right move.

* This interview has been given to the Spanish daily El Pais, and it comes from Periscope. Many different articles about the Catalonia crisis can be found in the Opinion section translated from different languages.